[Binari] chance computation
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint: 1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other? Anyone any hints? -- ================================================================== Michiel Van Bel PhD student Tel:+32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM mibel@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be http://bioinformatics.psb.ugent.be ==================================================================
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ? -- ================================================================== Frederik Delaere Tel:+32 (0)9 331 38 14 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM frlae@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be ==================================================================
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/ -- ================================================================== Michiel Van Bel PhD student Tel:+32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM mibel@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be http://bioinformatics.psb.ugent.be ==================================================================
so now the question is: is the chance for 10000 out of 30000 the same as 1 out of 3. oh wait, that's 1... guess not :D On 06/25/2010 02:58 PM, Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y<= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
-- ================================================================== Marijn Vandevoorde Tel:+32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM marijn.vandevoorde@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be ================================================================== "Fat bottomed girls, you make the rockin' world go round." --F. Mercury
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
Java BigInteger en BigDecimal to the rescue: 3486! is ongeveer gelijk aan (ff jullie mailbox spammen): 59286586058368885543878327028145675916399167731210221509470976651021456975709560 35211840826548292271620257735546884267363082256787656495017721723951448183442012 04130188065114167126087000415560849557216878393165716975913978158092727070242749 42520212241601617815586930736472922011883840559073828335699121197812300225859924 13599924875805600074502107867237855925431349451846803703312233710578016895410314 65612484264361384611839022282499624633401903423164587459448888840873576151606219 78544480838259113027688940407730311701626909043777158042802122810864855879609942 36894355238583772627945238504096763021036147037989867892945463206681435137340388 40182695777107295969369358757594773208171808658341525609694002001707905470730884 49634423725429608854837784674197164547764123526664583642429024914782085601238384 83830394399659930950809833024486687551776861022486424130023867974574308803057962 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00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000 -- ================================================================== Michiel Van Bel PhD student Tel:+32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM mibel@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be http://bioinformatics.psb.ugent.be ==================================================================
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
Okay, Elisabeth came up with a very good remark: the chance that 10 red pencils are next to each other, is the same as any other random combination of red and blue pencils. ... *grmbl* And with numbers as big as these, it is indeed probably better to just take the background frequency Y/X Although it still doesn't really "feel" right to me... but that is always the case with statistics see this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem Still makes no real sense to me :-( -- ================================================================== Michiel Van Bel PhD student Tel:+32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM mibel@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be http://bioinformatics.psb.ugent.be ==================================================================
Op 25-06-10 15:41, Michiel Van Bel schreef:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y<= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
Okay, Elisabeth came up with a very good remark: the chance that 10 red pencils are next to each other, is the same as any other random combination of red and blue pencils.
So if we take numbers we can imagine, say 20 blue pencils, 2 red ones... we should get the same chance that those two red ones are lying next to each other as the chance they're not? I never was too good at statistics either...
*grmbl* And with numbers as big as these, it is indeed probably better to just take the background frequency Y/X Although it still doesn't really "feel" right to me... but that is always the case with statistics
see this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem Still makes no real sense to me :-(
-- ================================================================== Thomas Van Parys Tel:+32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM thomas.vanparys@psb.vib-ugent.be http://bioinformatics.psb.ugent.be ==================================================================
Thomas Van Parys wrote:
Op 25-06-10 15:41, Michiel Van Bel schreef:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y<= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
Okay, Elisabeth came up with a very good remark: the chance that 10 red pencils are next to each other, is the same as any other random combination of red and blue pencils.
So if we take numbers we can imagine, say 20 blue pencils, 2 red ones... we should get the same chance that those two red ones are lying next to each other as the chance they're not?
I never was too good at statistics either...
Not exactly but it is the same for the two pencils lying on 1 and 2 or on 3 and 10.. so you have to add up the ones you want
*grmbl* And with numbers as big as these, it is indeed probably better to just take the background frequency Y/X Although it still doesn't really "feel" right to me... but that is always the case with statistics
see this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem Still makes no real sense to me :-(
-- ================================================================== Elisabeth Wischnitzki Tel:+32 (0)9 331 38 22 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM elwis@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be ==================================================================
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
Okay, Elisabeth came up with a very good remark: the chance that 10 red pencils are next to each other, is the same as any other random combination of red and blue pencils.
Eh?! The clue is, ofcourse, that the 10 pencils can be luying at any given spot of the 50 free positions. I think you need to calculate it like that. First calculate all possibilities of 10 spots next to eachother. Assume these 30 are red. Then fill all other spots with the remaining pencils. Now you only have to calculate somehow the overlap between the solutions. Eg. First 10 are red and last 10 are red, that configuration will be counted twice. I dunno. Sofie
...
*grmbl* And with numbers as big as these, it is indeed probably better to just take the background frequency Y/X Although it still doesn't really "feel" right to me... but that is always the case with statistics
see this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem Still makes no real sense to me :-(
-- Sofie Van Landeghem PhD Student VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Bioinformatics and Evolutionary Genomics Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM Tel: +32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 Website: http://bioinformatics.psb.ugent.be
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
Okay, Elisabeth came up with a very good remark: the chance that 10 red pencils are next to each other, is the same as any other random combination of red and blue pencils. ...
*grmbl* And with numbers as big as these, it is indeed probably better to just take the background frequency Y/X Although it still doesn't really "feel" right to me... but that is always the case with statistics
see this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem Still makes no real sense to me :-(
Btw: (N-Z)! is not 50*49*48...etc it is you example 40*39*...*2*1 N! / (N-Z)! is what you are looking for.. -- ================================================================== Elisabeth Wischnitzki Tel:+32 (0)9 331 38 22 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM elwis@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be ==================================================================
Elisabeth Wischnitzki wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
Okay, Elisabeth came up with a very good remark: the chance that 10 red pencils are next to each other, is the same as any other random combination of red and blue pencils. ...
*grmbl* And with numbers as big as these, it is indeed probably better to just take the background frequency Y/X Although it still doesn't really "feel" right to me... but that is always the case with statistics
see this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem Still makes no real sense to me :-(
Btw: (N-Z)! is not 50*49*48...etc it is you example 40*39*...*2*1
N! / (N-Z)! is what you are looking for..
But...there is no Y in that formula! *starts weeping silently under his desk* Screw it, I'll create my own statistic theories, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget about the statistics! -- ================================================================== Michiel Van Bel PhD student Tel:+32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM mibel@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be http://bioinformatics.psb.ugent.be ==================================================================
you should never ask for a 'why' in statistics. just accept it as it is On 06/25/2010 03:55 PM, Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Elisabeth Wischnitzki wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y<= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
Okay, Elisabeth came up with a very good remark: the chance that 10 red pencils are next to each other, is the same as any other random combination of red and blue pencils. ...
*grmbl* And with numbers as big as these, it is indeed probably better to just take the background frequency Y/X Although it still doesn't really "feel" right to me... but that is always the case with statistics
see this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem Still makes no real sense to me :-(
Btw: (N-Z)! is not 50*49*48...etc it is you example 40*39*...*2*1
N! / (N-Z)! is what you are looking for..
But...there is no Y in that formula! *starts weeping silently under his desk*
Screw it, I'll create my own statistic theories, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget about the statistics!
-- ================================================================== Marijn Vandevoorde Tel:+32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM marijn.vandevoorde@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be ================================================================== "Fat bottomed girls, you make the rockin' world go round." --F. Mercury
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Elisabeth Wischnitzki wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
Okay, Elisabeth came up with a very good remark: the chance that 10 red pencils are next to each other, is the same as any other random combination of red and blue pencils. ...
*grmbl* And with numbers as big as these, it is indeed probably better to just take the background frequency Y/X Although it still doesn't really "feel" right to me... but that is always the case with statistics
see this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem Still makes no real sense to me :-(
Btw: (N-Z)! is not 50*49*48...etc it is you example 40*39*...*2*1
N! / (N-Z)! is what you are looking for..
But...there is no Y in that formula! *starts weeping silently under his desk*
Screw it, I'll create my own statistic theories, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget about the statistics!
Right, just brute force over the weekend. Generate all the possibilities and then just count them :D Sofie -- Sofie Van Landeghem PhD Student VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Bioinformatics and Evolutionary Genomics Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM Tel: +32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 Website: http://bioinformatics.psb.ugent.be
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Elisabeth Wischnitzki wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
Okay, Elisabeth came up with a very good remark: the chance that 10 red pencils are next to each other, is the same as any other random combination of red and blue pencils. ...
*grmbl* And with numbers as big as these, it is indeed probably better to just take the background frequency Y/X Although it still doesn't really "feel" right to me... but that is always the case with statistics
see this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem Still makes no real sense to me :-(
Btw: (N-Z)! is not 50*49*48...etc it is you example 40*39*...*2*1
N! / (N-Z)! is what you are looking for..
But...there is no Y in that formula! *starts weeping silently under his desk*
Screw it, I'll create my own statistic theories, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget about the statistics!
just for the last part..and you also don't want to place all your Y red pencils but just 10. So the whole thing would be: (N-Z) * (Y! / (Y-Z)!) / (N! / (N-Z)!) -- ================================================================== Elisabeth Wischnitzki Tel:+32 (0)9 331 38 22 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM elwis@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be ==================================================================
Elisabeth Wischnitzki wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Elisabeth Wischnitzki wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
> okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to > google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint: > > 1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) > 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status > 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y > 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located > next to each other > > > For example: > X=50,Y=20,Z=10 > You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. > What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there > are 10 red pencils next to each other? > > Anyone any hints? > > > > > > > > > ask in the forums on unibet.com ?
okay, if I follow Marijn's reasoning: I get that the chance is approx. (N-Z) * (Y!) / ((N-Z)!) This should be great, except for the fact of course that N and Y are pretty big numbers (N : 30000 genes, Y : 10 to 10000 GO terms), and Z is pretty small (10 or so). 30000! is a rather largish number actually :-/
Okay, Elisabeth came up with a very good remark: the chance that 10 red pencils are next to each other, is the same as any other random combination of red and blue pencils. ...
*grmbl* And with numbers as big as these, it is indeed probably better to just take the background frequency Y/X Although it still doesn't really "feel" right to me... but that is always the case with statistics
see this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem Still makes no real sense to me :-(
Btw: (N-Z)! is not 50*49*48...etc it is you example 40*39*...*2*1
N! / (N-Z)! is what you are looking for..
But...there is no Y in that formula! *starts weeping silently under his desk*
Screw it, I'll create my own statistic theories, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget about the statistics!
just for the last part..and you also don't want to place all your Y red pencils but just 10. So the whole thing would be: (N-Z) * (Y! / (Y-Z)!) / (N! / (N-Z)!)
You know, this actually makes sense (and even the results for small inputs are correct) :-) Woot! Hurray for Elisabeth :-) -- ================================================================== Michiel Van Bel PhD student Tel:+32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM mibel@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be http://bioinformatics.psb.ugent.be ==================================================================
I'll do that, dividing those big numbers gives heaps of rounding errors anyway, and the results I get aren't really trustworthy
spend enough time with this stuff a week ago 8-)
But really: If you have large N then you can just approximate it with (N- Z)* p^Z and p = Y/N Or it will be even more stringent than the exact calculation... Otherwise you can calculate it like this and avoid the faculties: (N-Z) * Y/N * (Y-1)/(N-1)*...* (Y-Z+1)/(N-Z+1)
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
is probability het woord dat je zoekt ? -- ================================================================== Frederik Delaere Tel:+32 (0)9 331 38 14 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM frlae@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be ==================================================================
Frederik Delaere wrote:
Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
is probability het woord dat je zoekt ?
Het woord waar ik naar zocht was "probabilistic combinatorials" -- ================================================================== Michiel Van Bel PhD student Tel:+32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM mibel@psb.vib-ugent.be http://www.psb.vib-ugent.be http://bioinformatics.psb.ugent.be ==================================================================
Ik zou eens naar de Meyer mailen. Echt waar. Die mens gaat dat amusant vinden. IT, waar blijf je ondertussen? Michiel Van Bel wrote:
okay, my statistics is a bit rusty (and I do not really know how to google for it), so perhaps you guys might have a hint:
1) say you have X objects (in a linear row) 2) Y of those X objects (Y <= X naturally) have some kind of special status 3) Z is a number between 0 and Y 4) What are the odds that Z objects with the special status are located next to each other
For example: X=50,Y=20,Z=10 You have 50 pencils, and 20 of them are red, 30 of them are blue. What are the odds that (if you lay those 50 pencils down randomly) there are 10 red pencils next to each other?
Anyone any hints?
-- Sofie Van Landeghem PhD Student VIB Department of Plant Systems Biology, Ghent University Bioinformatics and Evolutionary Genomics Technologiepark 927, 9052 Gent, BELGIUM Tel: +32 (0)9 331 36 95 fax:+32 (0)9 3313809 Website: http://bioinformatics.psb.ugent.be
participants (6)
-
Elisabeth Wischnitzki -
Frederik Delaere -
Marijn Vandevoorde -
Michiel Van Bel -
Sofie Van Landeghem -
Thomas Van Parys